FLCC> [Cookies] tues ayes

Wed Jun 25 17:14:24 EDT 2008

I've got to vote with Nick here both on the slow through stop sign
corners and being ready and willing to stop.  I thought the outcome of
last years safety conversation was that all corners are 100% neutral
all the time and that we move slowly through and don't accelerate out
of them until the last rider through loudly calls CLEAR.  This was the
habit for part of last fall and maybe twice this spring, but is
falling apart generally and fell apart in this case yesterday.

I was maybe 5 riders back as we entered the corner at a pretty good
clip.  I recall a rider at the front calling clear as we approached
the corner just as I and others first saw the car.  Someone else
called car left right away.  This reinforces the bit that we're all
responsible for our own safety, someone didn't see the car (although
the clear call may be an artifact of my oxygen deprivation).

After I saw the car I maintained speed with the pack around me moving
fast on a tight inside line.  I knew I would be through the
intersection well before the car, but I was near the front at the time
and we were moving quick.  Had I been further back I would have slowed
more and maybe stopped as some riders did.  This would have been
easier and safer had we been slower through the corner.

I looked back and saw that the pack had split as some slowed, but I
didn't notice anyone stopped.  The group did accelerate at the front,
but my read was that the hard acceleration didn't start until the bulk
of the pack was through.

Would have been safer if we were slower into the corner giving people
more time to react and stop safely if necessary.  Also better if, even
without cars, someone near the back of the pack calls clear after
we're through a corner so everyone knows we're ready to race again.

-Charles

2008/6/25 Nick Robertson <njr28 at cornell.edu>:
> My impression of the corner was that it wasn't handled very well, but
> I tend to be a bit of a safety freak and am nervous in packs to begin
> with.  I don't think this was anyone's fault, I think the rules for
> neutralization are a bit fuzzy and need to be defined more clearly.
>
> My suggestion (and this may be too cautious, but I'd rather be over
> cautious than attend someone's funeral) is to treat it like a group
> ride.  If we were out on a weekend group ride and we were approaching
> that corner with a car coming from the left, we'd all stop and wait
> for it to go by.  I think since it is difficult to define how to
> corner safely with an oncoming car, I'd vote to see everyone stop at
> a corner when a car is spotted.
>
> Glenn mentioned a fear of riders piling up from behind if he hit the
> brakes for the car.  This was my fear last night too, and the reason
> that I didn't slam on mine.  But if we have to slam on our brakes, I
> think we are arguably going into a corner too fast to be safe.  Even
> if we go single file, and take the inside line, I still don't believe
> this is safe.  One rider can hit a patch of sand or flat through the
> corner and slide right into the car's path.  This is a problem at the
> Midline intersections too.  Riders tend to take the inside line to
> end up on the white line, out of the path of the car, but all it
> takes is a slip.  And it is a lot to ask of any inexperienced riders
> that are in the group to follow a line like that in the presence of a
> car.
>
> So, my question to everyone is this:  Can we neutralize corners where
> we run a stop sign (White Church - Coddington, Midline - Irish
> Settlement, Midline -79) to the point where everyone slows to a speed
> that is conducive to a COMPLETE stop without riders crashing into
> each other if a car is spotted?  That speed would be slow, something
> in the ballpark of 10 or 15 mph and it would be up to the first rider
> to slow the pack and the other riders not to speed around that first
> rider upon slowing.  If we're chasing a break and a car forces the
> pack to stop, too bad, the break gets an advantage (Paris-Roubaix a
> couple years ago with the train crossing).
>
> Is this reasonable, or overly cautious?  It is after all a group ride
> and not a race.  If the consensus is that this is too cautious,
> that's fine.  But I think we need clear cut rules for what is to be
> done at a corner when a car is spotted.
>
> My 2 cents.
>
> On Jun 25, 2008, at 3:47 PM, <mgarcia at borgwarner.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> I did not mean any offense by my post or to point fingers, so I
>> hope it was not perceived that way.
>>
>> Yes, Glenn and Andy are right.  I did attack at the climb and I should
>> have brought that up, because it no doubt seems hypocritical in
>> light of
>> my original post.  But here is my explanation.
>>
>> What happened was that I turned the corner in maybe 3rd position, saw
>> the car and called back. I then slowed up to wait for people to
>> regroup,
>>
>> assuming everyone would do the same.  Instead, the two riders ahead of
>> me seemed to push the pace and a bunch of people passed me and it
>> seemed
>>
>> the race was not stopping or slowing.  So I got a little irritated and
>> took a flyer to work off my adrenaline.
>>
>> I feel bad knowing now that Don and Noel? stopped and didn't catch on
>> and for my part in that I apologize.  I know I would be annoyed if I
>> was in their shoes.
>>
>> Thinking back over the situation was what motivated me to post,
>> because
>> I wanted to know if people saw that situation as being well-dealt with
>> or poorly-dealt with.  For my part, I admit that attacking before
>> everyone was back on was probably poor judgement.
>>
>> It seems like Glenn and Andy thought it was dealt with OK, so maybe
>> I am making an issue out of nothing?  Not sure.  It is easy to be
>> a Wednesday-morning quarterback.  Any other thoughts?
>>
>> -Ano
>>
>>
>>
>>> Interesting to me that it was Ano,
>>> somewhat further up the hill who went flying off the front while some
>> of us
>>> were still either holding back, or just being lazy....was he
>>> fueled by
>>> adrenaline after the car-interaction ?
>>
>>
>>
>> Mariano Garcia
>> BorgWarner Morse TEC Inc.
>> Ithaca Technical Center
>> 770 Warren Rd.    Ithaca NY 14850
>> Ph: 607-266-2136 (desk) 607-266-2243 (recep)
>> FAX: 607-257-5033
>> email: mgarcia at borgwarner.com
>>
>>
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